Wolff also wrote "Firelight." This story seems to move towards forgiveness, especially when compared to "The Chain." Do you agree? If so, what factors contribute to this direction? If not, what factors do you find overlapping in both stories? (As you read the story and consider this question, focus on the relationship between the son and mother. Remember the story's point of view--not only the person but the time from which that person tells the story.)
Special note: If you have been hanging back in the first few posts, push yourself to move towards the front of the line. I think we will produce richer results, if everyone takes turns entering at different stages. If you check back to see what people have been writing and want to add an additional comment, I hope we all make you feel welcome to do that. This venue can encourage people to discuss; let's help people feel free to build the conversation. We're off to a productive start.
I sort-of agree with that statement. In the begging of the novel, the boy and his mother get along very well and the boy seems very content with who his mother is and the lifestyle that she provides for her family. He is aware that they do not live with very much money and that their life could be better but he loves his mother and holds nothing against her. However, his mother becomes cranky during one of their weekend apartment tours which leads them to the home of sister and her family. There, the boy begins to feel some resentment for his mother for the first time as he sees the life that Sister lives and lings to be part of her family. When he finally decides to get up and leave, he is slightly cold (no pun intended) towards his mother. The story ends as the boy fast-forwards to his own future with his own fireplace, providing no real closing on the subject of forgiveness or his mother.
ReplyDeleteIn the Chain story, the situation moves away from forgiveness but I don't disagree with the idea that this story moves towards forgiveness. In fact, there are moments in the story where it moves away from forgiveness like when the son questions his mother as to why he didn't marry the rich guy. Another time when he moves further away from forgiveness is when he feels content at Dr. Avery's house.
ReplyDeleteTwo factors that lead him further away are jealousy and discontent with his current lifestyle. In the end, he gets what he wants but the son never displays any form of forgiveness towards his mother, the subject is never brought up to discuss with his mother.
Cindy, from the latter sentences in your comment, it appears you mean to say that you DO disagree with my claim that "Firelight" moves towards forgiveness? Do I understand your intention accurately?
ReplyDeleteErin, do you mean to start your second sentence with the phrase, "In the beginning of the novel"? Incidentally, "Firelight" is a short story, rather than a novel. Tobias Wolff has written novels. Some students have heard of THIS BOY'S LIFE; I have also read one called OLD SCHOOL.
Although this story is different from "The Chain" I don't think it really moves to forgiveness. The difference I think was more their reactions which made it seem like they weren't moving away from forgiveness. In "The Chain" it was quite clear that the anger surrounding the dog hurting Gold's daughter and Rourke's damaged car put them in a place where they could not forgive and instead wanted revenge. In "Firelight" the main character had a fairly positive attitude and didn't want to do anyone any harm. I think his attitude and disposition made it seem like he was more for forgiveness. I guess the point is that you need to be in a good state of mind to forgive rather than being in a negative state of mind.
ReplyDeleteI also think acceptance has a big role. Gold and Rourke could not accept the things that had been done to them whereas the main character in Firelight had more or less accepted his lifestyle. That doesn't mean that he was entirely content or accepted everything because he was really bothered that he could not live the way the Avery's did.
Yes, Melissa, I agree about the importance of acceptance. I see different kinds of acceptance, not all of them appearing in this story. Resignation is one form of acceptance, in which you don't like what has happened, but you are resigned to the fact that it has. Acceptance seems to imply moral endorsement; Gold and Rourke, for all of their faults, felt that the dog attach was unjust and unfair. Their inability to pause and consider consequences transformed their indignation into unintended harm. The son in "Firelight" is not indignant like these other two, but he did at one point fault his mother. It seems that years later, he has accepted her circumstances and her response to them. Incidentally, in your second sentence, I am not sure to whom you refer with the phrase "their reactions." Which characters do you mean? And which reactions do you mean? Finally, in your first two sentences, are you saying that the characters in "Firelight" are moving neither toward nor away from forgiveness--that they remain in the same position with regard to it?
ReplyDeleteI think that in "Firelight," there is a sense of forgiveness somewhat shadowed throughout the story. It seems pretty evident to me that although him and his mother are forced to live a somewhat rough life throughout his childhood, he recognizes her efforts.
ReplyDeleteIn "The Chain", there is almost constantly a negative feeling throughout the story. Although for a brief portion of the story, Gold realizes he should not hurt the dog, he still ends up agreeing to let Tom do it. However, in "Firelight" there always seems to be a somewhat positive feeling throughout the story.
I don't think that forgiveness moves in one linear line throughout the story.
ReplyDeleteIt goes from a content relationship between mother and son to resentment, especially when they enter Dr. Avery's house and the son notices the fire. Things seem o.k. in the last scene when the mother offers him her jacket. Yet even years later, when he has a family and fireplace of his own, he still feels like it is not entirely real or his own--a result of the life he had with his mother as a kid.
It is hard to answer the prompt because the main themes and ideas in the story were hinted at, not overtly shown like in The Chain. After reading Firelight, I wasn't sure what message I was "supposed" to take way from it. This contrasts sharply with The Chain because the lack of forgiveness was a big theme that reoccurred throughout.
I think I am going to have to reread this short story a few more times.
I agree with Seb's comment that the son recognizes his mother's efforts and admires her. I think that this does promote the feeling of well being and positivity in the story. So, in this way, the story probably moves closer in the direction of forgiveness.
ReplyDeleteWhen I read Seb's mention of a "somewhat positive feeling," I wonder what specific forms that feeling takes. In other words, what kind of positive feeling. Can you be more specific? A partial answer is suggested by your noting that the son recognizes his mother's efforts. That recognition seems one of the factors contributing to forgiveness. Where does that recognition come from?
ReplyDeleteAs to Angie's question about what to take away from the story, I wonder if the son's feelings about his mother's efforts signal any of the necessary ingredients in a situation characterized as forgiving. He has some regrets, yes, but he also has some level of understanding, it seems to me. I am curious whether or not others see this. Melissa uses the idea of acceptance.
Admiration, then, would be a possible factor in a forgiving climate. I am glad Angie used this word because it illustrates what I am asking about--the factors, the ingredients that increase the level, or chances, of forgiveness.
ReplyDeleteI guess this could also be respect. He had respect for his mother and her efforts while Gold and Rourke had no respect for the dog or the man who hit his car.
ReplyDeleteIn response to mr. brown's first comment, i did mean to say story, my mistake. I have read This Boys Life (a very good book)
ReplyDeleteTo add my thoughts about acceptance vs forgiveness, i agree that the boy accepts his relationship with his mother and he respects the effort she puts out in raising him. I speculate that especially after having his own children and having to raise them he could better understand his mother however i do not think that constitues forgiveness- in my opinion the two are related but different concepts.
In my first comment, I was trying to say that I disagreed that "Firelight" moves toward forgiveness. There were two incidents in the story that serve as evidence that the son is not able to forgive his mother for their hardships. The first is when the son questions his mother as to why she didn't marry the rich guy and the second is when he fantasizes about the Avery's house being his home.
ReplyDeleteThe son does have some level of understanding but I'm not quite sure if it's part of forgiveness or not. I would say understanding helps to deviate from revenge. The son understands his mother and therefore doesn't act in a negative way unlike Gold and Rourke who don't understand the dog's owner or drug dealer(partly because Gold never talked to the owner) and take revenge.
I am not sure I see a whole lot of forgiveness in this short story. The "positive feeling" throughout the book appears when the son seems grateful for what he has and for his mother. But in order for me to see forgiveness, something more significant would have had to happen in the story. For example in The Chain there was a dilemma that forced the characters involved to make decisions about whether to forgive or not. (They obviously chose not to do so.)
ReplyDeleteThe two events Cindy describes where the son chooses not to forgive, I would argue don't particularly relate to forgiveness. The son seemed somewhat shocked that his mom would decide not to get married to an all American football player, but I didn't get the feeling that he was very disappointed, or angry with her in anyway. If that were the case, then perhaps forgiveness would have played a bigger role, because he would have to chose whether or not to overcome his anger for his mom.
I don't think this story moves towards or away from forgiveness. I think the boy is amazing to be able to love and not hold no bitterness towards his mother for not having enough money to afford a nice apartment instead of living in a shelter. While the boy goes through understandable bouts of rebellion against his mother, his love for her despite their situation is undeniable. He doesn't blame her for their situation and therefore has nothing to forgive her for. A stark contrast to "The Chain" where forgiveness, acceptance and moving on are rampant themes throughout the story.
ReplyDeleteNow we're cooking; this last blast has produced a number of factors that help produce a forgiving climate. Whatever is the absence of blame is one. Love is another. Some people have noted that the son recounts this story after he has his own children. I think this detail is key. Once he has been in his mother's position as a parent, he understands her struggles more than when he was living at home. Empathy, then, seems another factor. This factor points to another because as a parent he gains knowledge. Once he knows about the challenges of being a parent, he is more likely to understand or empathize. I have enjoyed this exchange; it shows me what momentum feels like in these blog discussions. I need to be patient, as the responses unfold and start to build on each other. For example, I am learning that unlike "The Chain" this story offers no distinct reference to or example of forgiveness as most of us think of that term, but this discussion has shown me that the story does involve a kind of opening up or expanding of human possibility, in contrast to the tragic nature of "The Chain."
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