Friday, May 20, 2011
Junk People
In William Kennedy's novel, Ironweed, Francis takes work with a rag-picker--a man named Rosskam who buys rags and bottles and other "junk." In the first part of this story (thru ch. 3), do you find people who are seen, by themselves or others, as junk? Of which individuals is this most true? How do you respond to these perceptions and why?
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Although no one has posted comments yet (7pm Sunday), do your best to respond to previous comments, as you post your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteIn the story many people are treated like "junk" most often inadvertently. The first place in this book where we see this is the relationship between Rudy and Francis. While they say rude remarks to each other, they are mostly kidding around and have a companionship.
ReplyDeleteFrancis has in the past treated his family and those he killed badly as well. Although he apologizes to the men, he has yet to face his family who he left.
The most obvious person who he treats like "junk" is Helen who stays with him through thick and thin. He is devoted to her and cares about her but flies off the handle when he's been drinking.
Although he makes some poor choices and treats people badly sometimes, I think he is aware of it and feels bad about the things he has done.
From our work in class with this question, Erin, Kimiko, and I pinpointed Rudy to be perceived by Francis as "junk". He often picks on him verbally and puts him down. The pair joke and "rag" on each other in the first two chapters especially. I think Francis treats those around him like junk because he thinks of himself as a piece of junk.
ReplyDeleteFor the last twenty-years, Francis has very few aspirations. He is a bum, who works part time and drinks away most of the day. He carries a guilt with him about the son he accidentally killed and the family he has left behind. Unlike the statements made by the priest on page 33, Francis has turned very few of his negatives into positives.
Francis pleads with Oscar in the second chapter, "What was it that went bust...and how come nobody ever found out how to fix it for us?" (50). There are things that have gone bust in Francis' life and he seems to think of his life as junk. He has very little progression, aside from his attempts to stay sober.
These are mainly my thoughts about Francis. I have a few ideas about Helen from chapter three that I can elaborate after someone else posts, but I wanted to get the ball rolling.
Melissa, I agree about Francis treating Helen like junk in chapter 3. Like I said before, I think the poor relationships that he has cultivated with people in his life are a reflection about how Francis perceives himself--as junk. I think that is a key thing to think about.
ReplyDeleteI've noticed throughout this story I've stopped many times, confused by the way some of the characters talk to each other. Francis and Rudy's relationship was the first one I noticed hint's of "junk-treatment". Although they seem to be joking, I can't help but think that they both feel some truth behind their comments. Especially because they both are extremely poor, and live almost like bums.
ReplyDeleteMany times Francis treats Helen as taken for granted. Although Francis means the world to Helen, when she makes simple mistakes, or even when things happen that she cannot control, he loses his temper and treats her poorly. For example, on page 61 when the children were taunting Helen and then steal her purse, at first Francis shows compassion, but when he learns how much she lost he scorns her, "goddamn it, woman, now we aint got a penny. You and your sneaky goddamn ways" (61).
seb-- I agree that Francis tends to treat Helen poorly but I do think that in this case with the stolen purse, he was angry that they had just lost money, which is why he may have initially appeared angry with Helen. However, I do not see him holding a grudge towards her...perhaps he has a temper at times but does not entirely treat Helen like "junk". Based on his past, I would say its fairly reasonable to have somewhat of a temper, because he is living his whole life dealing with the knowledge that he has killed his own son. I do not know if he can ever get that out of his head, and therefore will always be an unpleasant person to those around him.
ReplyDeleteAs I was reading about the different relationships in the comments above, I noticed that everyone treats someone else like junk. Overall, there is a negative vibe among all the characters in the novel. Francis treats Rudy like junk, Francis treats Helen like junk,Clara treats Francis like junk and even the priest treats Sandra like junk as well. The interactions in the novel haven't been positive at all and it makes me wonder whether it will remain like this throughout the whole novel or if someone will show signs of respect.
ReplyDeleteKimiko and Erin, we still look forward to your posts (Wed, 5/25).
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ReplyDeleteI think that Francis looks at himself as junk which opens up the field for other people to treat him as such and explains why he treats others so poorly. As both Angie and Bobby pointed out, Francis treats Helen like junk, i think this is because he is looked down upon and mistreated by society so he looks for someone which he too can treat badly. In this way, he uses Helen as a scapegoat, he needs to prove to himself that there is someone beneath him, that he is not junk but Helen is, and Rudy too because he has the power to abuse them.
ReplyDeleteThere is no one in Francis' life who treats him with dignity and respect- is employers, they people from the church, and everyone else treat him like a drunken bum- junk in their eyes. In Francis' eyes, he used to be somebody
Like many have said before me, I think that in the beginning of Ironweed Francis and Rudy view each other as junk. While Rudy and Francis may speak to each other in a harsh passive aggressive manor, I also think that through their language other comes unity. Of course it is obvious that Francis views himself as higher then Rudy, however, I get the sense as though there is an unspoken known that both are view as "junk" by the rest of society and from that comes a sense of unity.
ReplyDeleteIn previous posts, there were examples where Francis' self-forgiveness affects how he treats other people like Rudy and Helen. People have stated that Francis treats people like junk because he thinks of himself as junk, since he hasn't forgiven himself. In chapter 5, I took a look at Francis and Helen's relationship from Helen's point of view. I'm wondering whether Helen thinks of herself as junk as Francis does because she doesn't forgive herself either,"Helen has no compulsion to confess her sins to gain absolution"(137). Helen doesn't treat Francis like junk or not as much as Francis treats Helen like junk. Helen watches out for Francis and cares for him.
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